Of Gods and Mortals

How well do you feel you understand scripts and the system/game/structure (don't know the word to put there) Daxter? After learning something there is usually a plateau that you come to where you feel your confident enough to make most things a reality instead of just ideas. How well of a grip on things do you feel you have?

Random question (I'm trying to think about what I'm about to ask)... What are the different components that make up B&W2 and that you have to work with? Most of what I hear you talk about is scripting. So that's 1 thing, but what about the others...

Example: Engine (do you mess with this at all?), Scripts (these make things/events happen), Music (for the ears, but most people don't mess with this), Textures (done in the map editor), Maps (made with the map editor), are there any others i'm missing?

Scripting is where it's at right? It's the oil and gas for the machine. You can have an engine and it's components, but if you don't have the oil and gas it will not run.
 
KB89 said:
How well do you feel you understand scripts and the system/game/structure (don't know the word to put there) Daxter? After learning something there is usually a plateau that you come to where you feel your confident enough to make most things a reality instead of just ideas. How well of a grip on things do you feel you have?

Random question (I'm trying to think about what I'm about to ask)... What are the different components that make up B&W2 and that you have to work with? Most of what I hear you talk about is scripting. So that's 1 thing, but what about the others...

Example: Engine (do you mess with this at all?), Scripts (these make things/events happen), Music (for the ears, but most people don't mess with this), Textures (done in the map editor), Maps (made with the map editor), are there any others i'm missing?

Scripting is where it's at right? It's the oil and gas for the machine. You can have an engine and it's components, but if you don't have the oil and gas it will not run.
Click to expand...

I'd say most of my work is through trial and error. The most important lesson u can have for scripting is to just give it a go and see how it works. There's enough in the language to make most things "reality", the only place you'd find a roadblock is when existing game mechanics come in play.

e.g. Creature modelling, generic models, voice, visual effects, sound and sometimes music

I'm sure I've mentioned this before but 95% of OGaM is made through script. Additional resources come from landscaping, music and bink videos for tutorials as necessary.

And while I'm here, I may as well release a new alpha video which shows a little preview of the scaffolding system that's been discussed. I took some time over the last couple of days to get it down, and while very early, this short video will address what the intention is.

Enjoy  :)

[youtube]yzcq_-jqKow[/youtube]
 
Hot off the press! :D

Liked and Subscribed.

Hearing the ambient music in B&W2 is always refreshing for me.
 
Video Update v0.04 of OGaM!

I've made quite a nice amount of progress with scaffolding, I thought I'd show it off on this short video. I also took the liberty of adding in additional captions for how the current control system works.

[youtube]pIqzu-SqjYA[/youtube]

If you guys have any comments or input, drop it below, it's been a big help so far.  :D

Additionally, once I figure out how to make the town interact with these scaffolds once placed as planned buildings, I should be a step closer to also plugging this additional idea into the God AI script.  :)
 
That looks awesome, but I'm mixed up on what its purpose is  ???

Is it to be implemented solemnly for the God AI? Or is it one of the features OGaM would possibly deliver to the player, as well? (In that case, normal 'pick-n-rotate' way the original game has would probably be better off than this...)

Either way, though, it's pretty great work. It's amazing how flexible modding in this game can be if done right -- nice one  :cheers
 
FunniestMonkey said:
That looks awesome, but I'm mixed up on what its purpose is  ???

Is it to be implemented solemnly for the God AI? Or is it one of the features OGaM would possibly deliver to the player, as well? (In that case, normal 'pick-n-rotate' way the original game has would probably be better off than this...)

Either way, though, it's pretty great work. It's amazing how flexible modding in this game can be if done right -- nice one  :cheers
Click to expand...

Both in this case. With OGaM, I want to try and bring back some of the in-world interaction that was stripped out of Black and White 1. Whilst the current build system in Black and White 2 is easier to use, it also can ruin immersiveness if you have to open the toolbar and click a button for a structure you want to build.

Some people would say that it's faster and simpler but often a system with a faster pace also makes the pace of the game so quick that it can end too swiftly taking the fun out. I believe a good game can sometimes consist of a few complicated mechanics with easy controls that make the player think out and plan how they want to play their game. In OGaM, the God AI was the first of that, being pitted against more than just other people of the land can up the challenge if done right.

People have seen in it's past iterations that it can potentially bring some of the fun back that Black and White 1 (and by that Battle of the Gods)had, battling a being of equal power rather than a squabble over which race in the game has the biggest armies or the most impressive city. Black and White 1 also had the backstory to how god's appeared in the world of Eden. While this was not fully addressed in Black and White 2, even if briefly at the end as a prerequisite for the undead Aztec god, it allows OGaM to do so in a unique way that the reason for the existence of the God AI means more map customization in the future (hopefully).

The second was going to be scaffolding. I remember back during the glory days of Black and White 1, where we had workshops. Small insignificant structures that produced the goods needed to extend and empower the powerhouse of the player's town in the world of Eden. Back then, we didnt have drag and drop icons from menus and relied entirely on square boxes to grow our towns. Although clunky, it got the job done and made the length of even a single map so much larger than anything Black and White 2 currently offers. However, Black and White 2 did introduce the "click and copy" method that let you pick up an existing building and place multiple copies of it within a town. This little tool means scaffolding in Black and White 2 is far less of a grind and hence a little more fun than it was in Black and White 1. Think of it this way, what is fun: "Open a menu, click this, put that there, no thinking required" OR "Interact with a real building in your world in order to unlock and build new structures, and from that use existing mechanics to simplify a more complex system that allows the player to continue to interact with that object or it's creator".

While I still have quite a long way to go, my hope is I am able to produce a product that's almost faithful to Black and White 1 as it's sequel should have been. I won't deny that Black and White 2 was quite a success over it's predecessor but I am also not afraid to point out some of it's flaws.

I apologize for the long read but I suppose I felt it was necessary to outline exactly what the intention behind this project is and what the little things I can do to help may bring to Black and White 2.

Thanks  :)
 
Nice going Daxter. I like these video updates.

How do you "plant" the building Daxter? With which button?

"Additionally, once I figure out how to make the town interact with these scaffolds once placed as planned buildings, I should be a step closer to also plugging this additional idea into the God AI script. "

^^Can you tell me what your having problems with specifically? Is it "planting" them. Or just getting the people to interact with them?

and also... do you plan on trying to implement gestures for the miracles?

 
KB89 said:
Nice going Daxter. I like these video updates.

How do you "plant" the building Daxter? With which button?

"Additionally, once I figure out how to make the town interact with these scaffolds once placed as planned buildings, I should be a step closer to also plugging this additional idea into the God AI script. "

^^Can you tell me what your having problems with specifically? Is it "planting" them. Or just getting the people to interact with them?

and also... do you plan on trying to implement gestures for the miracles?
Click to expand...

When it's in the script, it would require a simple click of the action button while hovering over the scaffold.

At the moment, interaction with scaffolds is non-existent, it's not a scripting issue, it's simply a "to-be-done" thing. The script uses a very simple script command that tells the scaffold what model to display depending on certain factors. e.g. if the shift key is being held down.

Code: 
 if hand position near {ThisScaffold} radius 40.00 and NextScaffoldHouse == 2 and bindable action BINDABLE_ACTION_TYPE_ACTION performed
     override mesh for ThisScaffold with "m_greekabode_c"
	NextScaffoldHouse = 3
     wait 0.5 seconds
end if

A very simple "IF" statement that tells the game, "what building in the list is next and when to display it", when the action button is clicked, the mesh object is given a new model directly from the models folder in the BnW2 directory. The problem is when creating abode objects through script, the town doesn't recognize them as being part of the town and rather generic objects being created, they don't have the same properties of a house or civic in a town and hence must be correctly scripted to tell the game:

- Create this house/civic
- attach it to the town it's being placed in
- enable interaction with the player and villagers

As for gestures, you may have to rephrase what you mean. The existing miracles in BnW2 or new ones? If the latter, most likely not since I don't want to overwhelm players right now with too many mechanics. Perhaps down the road if scripting allows me to.  :)
 
I get what your saying about the mesh object getting a model, but not having the properties. How time consuming do you think this will be to correct?

What I meant by gestures was the mouse/hand gestures used to create miracles. I remember them in B&W1, but not in B&W2. It's been awhile since I've played either of the games. I believe I always selected my miracles from the toolbar in B&W2, but in B&W1 there was mainly the use of hand gestures in order to use a miracle. Where gestures already in B&W2 or can I just not remember?
 
I get what your saying about the mesh object getting a model, but not having the properties. How time consuming do you think this will be to correct?
Click to expand...

I don't know yet, just gonna take my time and see where it goes.

What I meant by gestures was the mouse/hand gestures used to create miracles. I remember them in B&W1, but not in B&W2. It's been awhile since I've played either of the games. I believe I always selected my miracles from the toolbar in B&W2, but in B&W1 there was mainly the use of hand gestures in order to use a miracle. Where gestures already in B&W2 or can I just not remember?
Click to expand...

Yes, BnW2 already had gestures but this further reinforces my previous note about the nuisance of the toolbar, clicking an icon takes away the feeling of being god if u dont even need to perform miracles.  :p
 
Daxter said:
Yes, BnW2 already had gestures but this further reinforces my previous note about the nuisance of the toolbar, clicking an icon takes away the feeling of being god if u dont even need to perform miracles.  :p
Click to expand...

It's been a while, but if memory serves, I don't recall gestures working as well in B&W2 as they did in B&W1 either, i.e. the mechanism was there, but the recognition of the gesture you were drawing didn't work so good :( .
 
there are a few people according to google search that talk about the gestures not working well in b&w2. I don't think I used them at all, because of the toolbar being there. I remember using them playing B&W1 though a lot and enjoying them. I wonder if they could be tweaked for the better though?
 
I took the chance to have a look at them and try every possible iteration to try get something working but the script compiler gives a parse error and attempts to correct the error by offering other identifiers that are built into the compiler's program already,  so at this point, there's no way to make gestures perform better at least through script. I have a feeling it's a hard coding issue.  :(

 
I see now. Thanks for the reply (the long read was very worth it, actually :laugh2)

Keep doing your thing, I think recognition may will come your way eventually  :yes
 
He already has my praise for having the drive to want to keep B&W alive or add to it.

Peter Molyneaux has always been pretty ambitious with his games and has had really awesome vision. For me personally I think I come back to B&W because I always see the potential in what it could have been. It's a good game don't get me wrong, but its oddly shallow to me. Depth in the game was not executed very well, but the overall experience is grand and leaves me wanting a lot more. It has the potential to be an awesome game and I think that is part of the reason that it is awesome. It has definitely left an impression in me that I doubt I'll ever forget. This game has got to have some type of strange appeal to people. I'm pleasantly surprised to see people still get on this forum and talk about this game.

 
KB89 said:
He already has my praise for having the drive to want to keep B&W alive or add to it.

Peter Molyneaux has always been pretty ambitious with his games and has had really awesome vision. For me personally I think I come back to B&W because I always see the potential in what it could have been. It's a good game don't get me wrong, but its oddly shallow to me. Depth in the game was not executed very well, but the overall experience is grand and leaves me wanting a lot more. It has the potential to be an awesome game and I think that is part of the reason that it is awesome. It has definitely left an impression in me that I doubt I'll ever forget. This game has got to have some type of strange appeal to people. I'm pleasantly surprised to see people still get on this forum and talk about this game.
Click to expand...

I'm thankful for the fact that the modding tools are so near limitless for game functionality that it's possible to extend the life of the game when taken advantage to their full potential. Scripting itself is like any other program language and takes time to learn and understand but even the most beginner modder can make use of it's abundance and make something really cool.

I don't agree with the fact that the documentation for the script compiler was released without the complete set of statements, conditions, identifiers etc. that are currently built into the compiler's engine.

--------------------------------------------------------

OGaM Update!

Scaffolding system is now fully functioning. I had to do a slight tweak to what I had in place, a lot of it had to be scrapped as it was starting to become way too complex. But here's what it's doing so far.

- Scaffolds are produced from the Lumber Mill (default Black and White 2 building).
- Upon placing a scaffold, it defaults to Greek Abode A (the basic greek house).
- Clicking the action button will scroll through Houses A to E.
- Holding Shift while clicking the action button will scroll through civics (currently has storehouse, altar, granary and bathhouse included).
- When holding the F button and clicking the move button, the scaffold will immediately create a new house/civic based on what the currently selected model is.
- After the scaffold is placed, it becomes a part of the town that's building it.
- Abodes created through scaffolds act like normal buildings and can be God Builded or constructed by your townspeople.

After I clean it up a bit more, I'm looking to release another video showcasing this. At this point, the scaffolding mechanic in OGaM is almost complete. Once I get the other buildings in there, I can disable the construction menu of the toolbar for maximum testing. This also means the God AI will also have access to scaffolding and be able to build up their own towns in time. It's a little more complicated for God AI though because I need to correctly script it so the god can detect existing buildings within a certain radius so it doesn't try to place new ones ontop of them. But that's for another time.

Good times indeed!  :D
 
This sounds really awesome and user friendly, I've always been impressed with what you've been able to do Dax. I'd love to see it in action!

You know what I always thought was a cool idea? TEACHING a creature miracles as opposed to simply buying them. In my scripting days I gave it a shot, but didn't have the patience to see it through. It would be a simple 'miracle within radius' thing and after a certain amount of casts the miracle would be enabled. The part I had trouble with was triggering the floaty numbers, but I feel that if you're trying to make the game immersive, this is a simple thing you could implement. It's less need to open the toolbar and 'buy' stuff! Of course, finish what you're doing first - it sounds great!
 
SkelApe said:
This sounds really awesome and user friendly, I've always been impressed with what you've been able to do Dax. I'd love to see it in action!

You know what I always thought was a cool idea? TEACHING a creature miracles as opposed to simply buying them. In my scripting days I gave it a shot, but didn't have the patience to see it through. It would be a simple 'miracle within radius' thing and after a certain amount of casts the miracle would be enabled. The part I had trouble with was triggering the floaty numbers, but I feel that if you're trying to make the game immersive, this is a simple thing you could implement. It's less need to open the toolbar and 'buy' stuff! Of course, finish what you're doing first - it sounds great!
Click to expand...

Could be simple enough, there is a little issue with conditional statements for miracles where the game doesn't clear recently cast miracles. This exact reason is why the belief system has some difficulties atm. When I cast a fire miracle for example, the belief system is supposed to trigger an on-screen display of the belief it gives before decreasing it's value, however after the first it continues to display the decrementing numbers pass zero into the negatives, and I'm yet to look into this.

It feels like a missing command in the compiler's engine that simply wasn't documented, the same way I blindly came across the command that let me make scaffolds a part of the town. But thanks for the idea.  :)

Sorry for no video yet either, I seem to have come into some game crashing as a result of a scripting error. I'll have to have a look to see what is causing it.
 
Of Gods and Mortals - Alpha v0.05

[youtube]jfviohxAy5U[/youtube]

Scaffolding Update:
  • ADDED: Construction Ring - This is basically a boundary that gives the player information about placement. If a scaffold is too large for it's current position, it can be moved.
  • ADDED: Picking Up / Placing Scaffolds In Progress - As a bonus to the Construction Ring, when there's little room to build a scaffold, u can pick it up and move it.  
  • CHANGED: "F" button now controls precision placement - Allows the player to freeze the current angle of the scaffold to align it with nearby roads or other buildings, etc.

Current Issues:
  • Scaffold rotations can occasionally crash the game if the player takes  too long to place and construct
  • Some crashing may also occur when placing multiple scaffolds after the first. This issue may directly conflict or be a result of the first issue above.
  • Dropping a scaffold can sometimes result in picking it up again shortly after if the player presses the action button too quickly
 
This is good Daxter. Very good. How many hours are you putting in a day to achieve these results?
 
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