Creatures : Too Generic now?

Just to add something here. There's another thread talking about the BW2 Creature being in the book of world records
The size of the creature's mind increases from 6–7 KB up to 500 KB. This is the first time a computer game character has been programmed with such empathic learning capabilities
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Maybe the learning system is simpler, but it seems that the creature can be capable of learning quite a lot. The original creature mind was only about 55 to 60 KB.
 
One thing I've noticed is that as the Creature 'grows' as an 'entity', he seems to adapt from his initial programming/training in a similar way as the BW1 creature.  For example, a creature that has been beaten to -100% (X) for pooping on trees, buildings, his pen, rocks, ore, villagers, will opt for harshly punished behaviour until the critical moment in which the light turn on and he 'thinks' of pooping in a field.  Until then, however, he will resort to previously taught lessons for all of his actions... and possibly never discover other methods of performing scripted actions.
 
Neat, this brings up all new stuffs. I had no clue that the creatures were so capable now. I guess ill spend some more time with my wolf.

However, let me bring up another point. I really like how much more influence we have over our creatures. We can tell them to workout or eat something that they are holding. We can tell them to inspire the troops or to gather lumber.

It's becoming increasingly easy to guide them. But  i do find it limited that we cant teach them things like where to poop unless, as Vargoradaath brought up, they think of it themselves.
 
True, they're more mechanical now.  But I still think back to my ape-training days in BnW1.  It sometimes felt like I had no control at all over what they did.  I could smack my monkey for being playful, and what would he do?  Keep on taunting some invisible thing and laughing.  Never did figure out if he was mocking me...

In a way, this system is much better.
 
Lol @ Firry, I never used the ape for that same seaon.

As for training a BW2 creature, once a creature has discovered (for lack of a better word) an action you can go into one of the creature menus, bring it up and set his priority for that action.
That menu has a section for learnt actions and one for what he knows but hasn't been educated on yet.
 
Vargoradaath said:
One thing I've noticed is that as the Creature 'grows' as an 'entity', he seems to adapt from his initial programming/training in a similar way as the BW1 creature.  For example, a creature that has been beaten to -100% (X) for pooping on trees, buildings, his pen, rocks, ore, villagers, will opt for harshly punished behaviour until the critical moment in which the light turn on and he 'thinks' of pooping in a field.  Until then, however, he will resort to previously taught lessons for all of his actions... and possibly never discover other methods of performing scripted actions.
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Yeah, you're right on with this. Technically you could leave your creature totally alone for a long time, and inside of 5 minutes pass judgement on anything he ever did. As you pointed out, half the time you're simply waiting for him to think about doing different stuff. There is no easy way to prompt him to do it.
 
[alphaBeta] said:
One thing I can't find is a way to bring up his "I'm happy/sad" balloon just to pet him. Whenever I interact with him it's always showing his last action.
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I haven't found a way either. You have to be real quick - before he thinks of something else.
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I think I've found a way to increase his happiness. If you pet him, no matter which balloon is up his happiness will rise also, but at a slower rate. Just keep on petting him until the happiness indicator on the top right of the screen gets to where you want it to be. If you don't want him at 100% for the balloon that is showing then just give him a couple of quick slaps to bring it down and then pet him to leave a smile in his face.
 
I just bought BW2 a few days ago and "hardcore" played it. I chose a wolf because in BW1 he was my choice. He was well rounded and fun to teach and watch. He would litterally do everything for my sheer pleasure. It was great. (In the end he was useless and i had to scrap him, i shed a few tears and i still play with him) He would go around and be fun, and burn stuff, or dance, Etc. He felt different than other creatures, because i spent time with him and we played and taught. He might have been a switch board, but he felt real, as i didnt have a list of "THIS IS WHAT HE IS" available at a whim that i could completely change. In BW2 i dont enjoy the creature very much, i would almost say not at all. He does things programmed. I can see what he is going to do, and i can ignore him now. He will do what i want him to do regardless as in about 10-15 minutes of programming he knows what to do. In some ways he isnt very good, as he doesnt take care of himself outside of his physic. He doesnt eat at all. He doesnt do anything *for me*. I cant show him to entertain me, or to do something unique. They used to have alot of freedom... THATS IT, its that they cant put 2-3 actions together for a result. The old game they used to be able to take punishment and happiness, on multiple things and realize what you wanted. You could teach them to do something by guiding their steps, in this its impossible to guide, its more of a forced puppetry, in the old game it was that i could guide him and show him things, as a pup, he would learn to feed people by me putting food into the store, casting a miracle and having him watch. In bw2, i just click on and off from what he has already done and tadaa. No beating around the bush and getting the feeling that you were litterally trying to give him ideas on what to do.
 
Now this is a thread I can sink my teeth into as I agree with alot that has been said. 

Azchonnarrack said:
he would learn to feed people by me putting food into the store, casting a miracle and having him watch.
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This was one of the things I loved about B&W1 and didn't discover for quite a long time.  Whenever I had him on the learning leash and he was paying attention to me, I loved it when he "got" what I was trying to show him.  I'd plant a tree, water it, then he'd stick up his finger in a Eurika moment, then set about growing a forrest on the spot I planted a tree.  It was that kind of in-game world understanding that I loved.

Now while the AI behind the new creature is far more powerful than B&W1, I believe it's the interface that has let the whole thing down, merely because of the fact that we know we're using an interface in B&W2.  For all it's flaws in B&W1, the Creature teaching interface  had many wonderful subtleties which kept it almost visibly hidden from us.  At no point, did you really open an interface as such when teaching your creature, it was all pretty much in the game world.  The only exception to this was when you rewarded your creature, you could see some of his stats.

In B&W2, it has changed completely to a much more visible interface which saddens me.  For every thought bubble the creature has you just set it once and never have to worry about that setting again unless you wish to change it noticably.  You then go through menus and have to  scroll *shudders* through options *shivers* to get what you want and reset your creature's opinion on that.

What I also really miss was teaching my creature miracles.  MY GOD, that was one of the most fun aspects in B&W1, and now we just purchase them in B&W2.  Now that was a big no-no in my books :shocked :cry :no .

At the end of the day, I think they tried too hard to fix all the problems that were frustrating to players where the creature was concerned in B&W2.  It wasn't all their fault either.  We kept saying we wanted to see what was going on in our creature's head, but at the perhaps too high a price of no longer seeing our creature as a pet, but instead as just another configurable game character.  We wanted a transparent creature, we got a transparent creature.  But as the word implies, it means we can now see straight through our creatures.  There's no mystery any more.

To be honest, at the end of the day, I think the blame for the new creatures must be shared between both the developers and the community.  Neither of us really knew what we wanted :upside :no :sorry .
 
I agree compleatly..
I think we all were thinking the same thinkg when we heard that there was going to be a sort of list of the creatures teachins... but we didn't really think it'd be much too differing from the first game.
I dont think anyone relised either, we did get want we want, and now I guess we want a bit of the old back.
Not that I dont like the learning system of B&W2, its a wonderful and detailed AI, but the creature doens't really change or adapt... In the first game I remember having to constantly stay onto my creature for eating rocks  :laugh2 and then he'd just sneak off and do it when I wasn't looking.
Now once he learns he wont do the behaivior again.. unless you well change the scale on your own. hmm...
 
Shifting the focus ever so slightly, I've noted a degree of responsiveness in the BW2 creature that resembles, in a somewhat frustrating manner, the behaviour of the B&W creature:

It's still watching you.  Sort of.

That is, it seems to respond in kind to player actions if such actions mirror his training; watering trees is undoubtedly my creature's favourite action, and whenever I start bombarding the trees with Water miracles, he immediately drops whatever action he's performing and waters the nearest cluster of trees.  Much like with healing, only he tends to display a bit more autonomy in regards to healing.

I'll play around with it some more, perhaps using aggressive miracles to 'train' him to use his own more often.  It may be the the creature has some of its observational programming intact, and it only needs time or attention to manifest.
 
I've noticed that, too.  To a certain extent, McFuzzy will mirror what you do.  First noticed that with tree watering-My wolf stopped what he was doing and watered a tree.

They also seem to have some personality... I just made a new file with a wolf, and he is quirky, friendly, hyper, and actually eats.  Then again, he's on the downstairs computer which has an awesome graphic card, so maybe it's just high self-esteem from actually being furry and and trailing flowers in his wake.
 
Personality?  At times, my new Lion seems to exhibit a degree of individuality; he'll actually feed himself and workout using trees to keep himself reasonably healthy, unlike my first, second, and third Wolves, both of my Tigers, and that stupid Ape that I couldn't keep myself from beating.  That, and his face has yet to distort hideously, despite the fact that his alignment is nearly +50%. 

Then again, my current profile is my attempt to recreate my preferred style of B&W play - Evil god, Good creature.  As soon as I beat away all of my creature's construction urges (I'm still watching for new Builder conditioning manifestations), he should resemble in many ways, my most favoured creature of all, Rheothalmus (those around about two or so years ago may remember my tales of virtuous Rheothalmus, whose transformation from Tiger to Turtle all but destroyed his individuality and personality, and left him a useless, disappointing, lump of nothing).

Creatures still take note of whether or not you interact with them; my worthless Tiger has wasted away to an emaciated bag of bones (yet again) due to the fact that when I leave him to his own devices, he invariably gets stuck between buildings and starves; when I finally remember to check on him, he shows all sorts of "I'm lonely" and "I'm feeling ignored" messages - quite uncharacteristic for a tiger, I'd say.  Perhaps interaction and behavioural/environmental enrichment helps to keep the creature's programming active; perhaps its hardcoded, 'eureka' functions are generated not randomly, but through indirect example...
 
hi I'm new.

I haven't played the earlier B&W games but I'd have to the agree the interface feels a little two transparent. One thing I have noticed is that my evil lion loves to use trees to beat the stuffing out of enemy platoons (haven't got a chance to see if he does anything with other creatures, or if it even works with creatures) .

I first noticed this on the first jap island (I was making a point to have him pick up objects and use them when attacking patrolling platoons) when I was attempting to take the jap's city my creature had taken down the wall beside the gate on the front left and I had proceeded to bring my army up (I had forgotten about the siren) so my entire army was gone. I pulled back my creature because he was taking alot of fire from archers and healed him up, for the next while I had done hit and runs on the city. in a very lucky stroke of foresight I had broken up some bolders to toss at the wall and anything else, so I used them to kill as many archers as I could and them stomp the rest before running away. I believe whenever get got pissed (not sure if it was rage related) he would run out of the city grab a tree and run back and hit a few home runs  (he would use the tree for three to four swings before he dropped when I observed.

heh, sorry it's so long :)

*edit* heh, didn't look at the the date of the last post  :sorry
 
yea u r new cus if u wernt then u would no the bw2 has robot animals instead of actually havein to train them.!!
 
Ya know what?? the creature fights are different. I liked it when you could rip apart the enemy creatures as you or as as your creature!  :devil
 
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